tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post4852196368346573991..comments2023-11-05T04:58:15.443-07:00Comments on Straight and Narrow Blog: The Mormons and KJV BibleJettboyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00300495482595955440noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-34794632606879831422011-07-26T06:49:36.032-06:002011-07-26T06:49:36.032-06:00The cultural conservatism issue is a much harder d...<b> The cultural conservatism issue is a much harder discussion because it essentially asks to psychoanalyze a whole Church in a general way. </b><br /><br />Yep pretty much. Looking forward to your post. If it is going to be a while, and I'm not responding to whatever new threads you've created in the intervening days/weeks/months/years drop a note at my blog when it shows up.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-83799198185764545252011-07-26T05:52:02.366-06:002011-07-26T05:52:02.366-06:00This little discussion about the KJV has been enli...This little discussion about the KJV has been enlightening and fun. It forced me to study the topic of the Great Apostasy more than I ever had, and in the process refine my own beliefs about what happened. The cultural conservatism issue is a much harder discussion because it essentially asks to psychoanalyze a whole Church in a general way. I'll get to writing a post on the question when Jettboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00300495482595955440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-48441792141506970802011-07-25T13:07:15.880-06:002011-07-25T13:07:15.880-06:00I think your first book-link is mis-pointed. Anyw...I think your first book-link is mis-pointed. Anyway understood you don't have the power to change something. Canon by its very nature requires a community change. <br /><br />a) I understand the language of prayer, ties to the BoM and other cultural issues that make a shift from the KJV not as easy as it would be for most churches.<br /><br />b) I think you are essentially agreeing now CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-36286692520558920512011-07-25T08:07:30.185-06:002011-07-25T08:07:30.185-06:00Like I said, I don't know much about what is o...Like I said, I don't know much about what is out there and only going by Mormon apologist usages. Currently this is all just "fantasy" because I am a mere member of the LDS Church with no authority other than a general Priesthood holder. That doesn't mean if I so wanted that I couldn't read or have copies of my own collection. On the other hand, I don't think I could getJettboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00300495482595955440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-23045829961553080622011-07-24T21:18:37.171-06:002011-07-24T21:18:37.171-06:001 Clement, Didache, Shepherd of Hermes, 1 Enoch, 1...<b> 1 Clement, Didache, Shepherd of Hermes, 1 Enoch, 1 and 2 Maccabees, and selected Dead Sea Scrolls literature </b><br /><br />That's a lot like the canon of the Ethiopian Orthodox church, except for the DSS. BTW you sure about the DSS? A lot of the DSS stuff this is of interest to Christians is extremely hostile to Paul and the Catholics. <br /><br />BTW why not 2Enoch with all the CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-59536093594670475572011-07-24T21:18:23.921-06:002011-07-24T21:18:23.921-06:001) The texts must be doctrinally consistent with m...<b> 1) The texts must be doctrinally consistent with major Mormon teachings and revelations. </b><br /><br />This is a good criteria. Though frankly you could do better drop some of the NT and pick a lot of alternatives. Basically there are tons and tons of Hermetic stuff that support Mormonism really well.<br /><br />Also the apocrypha is rather friendly to Mormonism. That wouldn't be CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-37279573516068514482011-07-24T20:12:47.740-06:002011-07-24T20:12:47.740-06:00Glad you liked the Protestant comment about the ea...Glad you liked the Protestant comment about the easy choice we agree there!<br /><br /><b> Perhaps now that I have read a little more "Great Apostasy" studies along with your commentary, my definition of "Primitive Christianity" has expanded to proto-Catholic/Catholic up to near 200? dateline. </b><br /><br />OK so just to make sure you are saying no on the Montanists? Also CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-56865984046633118352011-07-24T16:39:50.686-06:002011-07-24T16:39:50.686-06:00"How would a Mormon know that say Titus is a ..."How would a Mormon know that say Titus is a product of the true church and not the apostate church?"<br /><br />Like I said above, for the Bible books as a whole; Mormons would start with Joseph Smith and subsequent prophets used them as authoritative, all of them were to one degree or another quoted in other revelations (particularly Doctrine and Covenants) showing approval by the Jettboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00300495482595955440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-54182916215684393802011-07-24T09:49:07.368-06:002011-07-24T09:49:07.368-06:00Hi I'll wait for the rest for the rest of the ...Hi I'll wait for the rest for the rest of the response. But I can address the fragment<br /><br /><b> Interesting article. I agree with a lot of what they wrote except the idea that Paul </b><br /><br /><br />Interesting article. I agree with a lot of what they wrote except the idea that Paul wrote the Pastoral Epistles.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-71895019007694988802011-07-24T07:47:50.493-06:002011-07-24T07:47:50.493-06:00"I agree with a lot of what they wrote except..."I agree with a lot of what they wrote except the idea that Paul So"<br /><br />This sounds like an unfinished thought. can you restate or elaborate?<br /><br />"If I ask a Protestant they give me some BS which is based on historical ignorance that everyone instantly agreed with that canon was and it revealed itself without too much trouble."<br /><br />That is too funny, and Jettboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00300495482595955440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-2734651756812403412011-07-23T20:16:15.498-06:002011-07-23T20:16:15.498-06:00(part 2)
I'm not say throw away Christian scri...(part 2)<br />I'm not say throw away Christian scripture. What I'm saying is they do need to decide:<br /><br />What is tier 1<br />What is tier 2<br />What is tier 3<br /><br />Right now it seems either:<br /><br />a) BoM is tier 1. KJV, Pearl and D&C are tier 2. <br />b) They are all tier 1. <br /><br />There are a huge number of choices in putting those particular 66 books, CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-59935163602735562422011-07-23T20:15:57.097-06:002011-07-23T20:15:57.097-06:00Mormons are not in the habit of throwing away Chri...<b> Mormons are not in the habit of throwing away Christian Scriptures. On the other hand, getting something made as part of the Canon is very difficult (I know to a non-believer it seems only to take a snap of the finger, but that isn't the way believers look at it) , taking Prophetic and not Scholastic reasoning. </b><br /><br />Don't get me wrong I don't think this is easy. I CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-60798405475888309832011-07-23T20:15:13.109-06:002011-07-23T20:15:13.109-06:00Hi Jettboy --
Well actually you did make a post. ...Hi Jettboy --<br /><br />Well actually you did make a post. The first paragraph of your response came through originally as an anonymous post, seems gone now. So my response to anon is to the first paragraph. <br /><br />As an aside I read a good chunk of Talmage between these posts. He does a nice job of defining the great apostasy in stages:<br /><br />a) Apostasy from the church in the CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-48047102281960471182011-07-23T17:50:00.141-06:002011-07-23T17:50:00.141-06:00Hi Anon --
Interesting article. I agree with a l...Hi Anon --<br /><br />Interesting article. I agree with a lot of what they wrote except the idea that Paul So just for lurkers the timeline on this is<br /><br />rebellion starts around 50<br />true church is losing 80-90<br />true church extinct by 150 probably closer to 100<br /><br />One thing I didn't quite get from the article is their attitude towards Montanism. I wasn't sure if CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-62406480096507119442011-07-23T12:16:46.420-06:002011-07-23T12:16:46.420-06:00I thought that I had posted something, but I guess...I thought that I had posted something, but I guess not. There is an online book <a href="http://www.fairlds.org/Restoring_the_Ancient_Church/" rel="nofollow">Restoring the Ancient Church:<br />Joseph Smith and Early Christianity</a> by Barry Bickmore that discusses the Apostasy. Of most interest to this discussion is probably the 2nd Chapter. Near the end he talks about the Bible Canon although Jettboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00300495482595955440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-18833490071019358562011-07-23T09:11:45.969-06:002011-07-23T09:11:45.969-06:00Sorry in the last post the two paragraphs about th...Sorry in the last post the two paragraphs about the Arians got flipped.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-60524498955878752282011-07-23T09:08:49.066-06:002011-07-23T09:08:49.066-06:00The Catholic link is good. I've often heard C...The Catholic link is good. I've often heard Catholics make the counter argument to Protestants regarding apostolic continuation, "Either the Catholic Church is right or the Mormon Church is your's can't be" for essentially that reason. Protestants have an untenable position of endorsing creeds written by people all of whom would have seen Luther, Calvin, Zwingli... as CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-7187587467038499882011-07-22T21:44:07.447-06:002011-07-22T21:44:07.447-06:00Interesting enough, Joseph Smith sort of did c) re...Interesting enough, Joseph Smith sort of did c) rethink the choice of original sources d) rethink the translation methodology and e) redo the translation. The whole point of D&C 91 was that he was in the process of "translating" the Bible that later became the Joseph Smith Translation. There is some argument if he eventually finished or if it was an ongoing project. Of course, his Jettboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00300495482595955440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-63023168775516664312011-07-22T21:34:36.116-06:002011-07-22T21:34:36.116-06:00"In my Hermetic article I had misunderstandin..."In my Hermetic article I had misunderstanding of the great apostasy where the "true church" (Hermetic church) gradually melted away, and there wasn't a sharp break."<br /><br />I do see what you mean and I tried in my "didn't give a date . . . and it could have been between . . ." statement to imply that it very well could have been gradual. And, if you readJettboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00300495482595955440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-73056342153790724752011-07-22T20:55:36.142-06:002011-07-22T20:55:36.142-06:00Quick points about the KJV in terms of ties to the...Quick points about the KJV in terms of ties to the late Catholic church...<br /><br />1) The book choice itself is 5th century as I mentioned. <br /><br />2) The versions of the books are the Catholic versions. Tertullian wonderfully documents how complex the choices were between versions and verses. He and Origin are essentially reconstructing these books and determining on a verse by verse CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-75338433948566883032011-07-22T20:23:43.138-06:002011-07-22T20:23:43.138-06:00Part of the problem is that Joseph Smith never sai...<b> Part of the problem is that Joseph Smith never said or had a revelation on when or how the Great Apostasy happened; only that it did. It could have happened the final part of the First Century or some time in the Third. That means that the Bible books could still fall under when Primitive Christianity (define?) still had an existence. </b><br /><br />Assuming that we don't want to view CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-45893652584671284182011-07-22T19:26:11.195-06:002011-07-22T19:26:11.195-06:00Jettboy --
Whew. I totally completely buy the J...Jettboy --<br /><br />Whew. I totally completely buy the Joseph Smith used the King James version casually and never seriously considered a major rethinking argument. The question is whether that is in any way consistent with the rest of his beliefs. <br /><br />Let me just kill a simple matter of fact before moving on which might present a problem. <br /><br /><b> I think most Mormons wouldCD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-19685323886608464382011-07-22T17:01:49.411-06:002011-07-22T17:01:49.411-06:00I am sorry for not commenting on this sooner. Need...I am sorry for not commenting on this sooner. Needless to say, the other questions exploded and neither of us had time to expand on this discussion. As I said, these are great questions. Yet, I don't think the reasoning will be too deep.<br /><br />The short answer to why we accept all Protestant 66 books (including Paul) is that Joseph Smith did. He is the founding Prophet and therefore Jettboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00300495482595955440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-20315526356647423962011-07-18T10:42:02.576-06:002011-07-18T10:42:02.576-06:00This is a cross link post, to help people follow t...This is a cross link post, to help people follow the thread of discussion, for people coming from Church-Discipline there is no original content. <br /><br />___<br /><br />In response to one of my posts Jettboy (our host): commented <br /><br /><b> Mormons have never claimed we are historic Christians. I think you are misinterpreting Joseph Smith's historical claim. He claims a Restoration CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442628.post-8009163830801784012011-07-11T17:59:50.128-06:002011-07-11T17:59:50.128-06:00BTW just posted part 3.BTW just posted part 3.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.com